Is Fractality the (Electric) Cause of GRAVITY

and ALL Centripedal, Self Organizing, NegEntropic Wave Forces-
- update on the HARD SCIENCE..(we do the numbers)


Including recent "Cantorian" dialogs (for scientists) between Professor El Naschie (3140 references to his work, many on GOLDEN MEAN and quantum geometry) & Dan Winter: Is Fractality the (Electric) Cause of Gravity..?(
as they have specifically been included in the ongoing dialog
at the 'watershed' magazine article about Garrett Lisi's 'Surfer Dude' E8- famous THEORY OF EVERYTHING : The symmetry of all the fundamental particles - including potentially - the gravitational components were accounted for in one ('E8') symmetry array. ..It is widely acknowledged that the E8 Theory of Everything- rests largely on the shoulders of Professor El Naschie's lifetime of work on Golden Mean based Lie symmetries... Numerous of the magazine comments suggest both El Naschie and Lisi for Nobel consideration.

To Dan Winter's direct question: IS FRACTALITY THE ELECTRIC CAUSE OF GRAVITY?- the famous and very polite Professor Naschie responded: (more below) "...I call it quantum golden field theory. So in a sense you are right after all. But the way you wrote your sentence is rather provocative to the mainstream physicists....."
- to which we would add only the comment: " ! " (provocative you say... The very nice Prof. El Naschie is more polite than we to the same mainstream physics destroying the soul in DNA because they cannot see how it's Golden Ratio makes it a gravity engine! )

This article url: This article is specifically an extension of the recent , and closely related to

Burkhard Heim (links on AntiGravity) "Succeeded more than 30 years ago in showing the existence of higher dimensions in a mathematics formalism. The complete physics of gravitation - when we follow Heim - is only possible in a 12 dimensional hyperspace which shows as well the material and spiritual reality in a mathematic system. " Raum and Zeit: Issue 152 / 2008, p 75-81 : Visionary Sciences: Burkhard Heim The Physics of HyperSpace by, Marcus Schmieke

--IMPLOSION GROUP newsletter url: - Feb 28,2008 Implosion Group distribution of Dan Winter's work- Main Index: 1 Million hits/month,
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First, timeout for a cool note: In out latest , we noted: "While (profoundly confused) UN leaders announce the world issue is Global Warming, our close friends scientists group in UK (Glastonbury) announce there is no proveable relationship between atmospheric carbon and global warming - PLUS the real solar data clearly plots we have entered global cooling due to a very predicted Solar "Maunder Minimum". NASA data appears to show major losses of global heat in the ocean in recent years. The issue of course is more than just that global magnetic fractality is the ONLY way to avoid heat during compression - but MORE - that global (long wave magnetic) fractality is the ONLY way to make the gravity (see the hard science update below!!) to hold atmosphere together - during Solar stresses - AND THE ONLY WAY ANY WAVE SYSTEM EMERGES FROM CHAOS...(which is ever so clearly what we are entering)." this provoked so much response- we thought to update this with a RECENT - short reading list: (best of? Maunder Minimum vs Global Cooling-8000 articles)
Forget global warming: Welcome to the new Ice Age , Lorne Gunter, National Post: February 25, 2008
The Evidence of Earth's Unstoppable 1,500 Year Climate Cycle---The Ice Cores:" The amount of carbon dioxide mankind adds to the atmosphere is obviously not a factor."
Global Cooling! Twelve-month long drop in world temperatures wipes out a century of warming February 27th, 2008
The global warming scam (Scam, noun: a swindle, a fraudulent arrangement.)By Derek Kelly, PhD
GM exec stands by calling global warming a 'crock'...
Global Warming Is A Total Scam
related:Food shortages loom as wheat crop shrinks and prices rise-World 10 weeks away from NO WHEAT.. , Sunday Times , February 24, 2008
Secret Pentagon Report Sees Eco Disaster Coming (they see global war / breakdown based on eco-disaster, but misinterpret the climate change destruction here..)
& related(the bad news: currency collapse?): Protocols For Economic Collapse In America

In our latest -we did promise you more serious science... - so lets start:

NEW!- new updated to our Internationally Recognized BIOLOGIC ARCHITECTURE curriculum: : added Feb 08: Beautiful Example of FRACTALITY Creating Sacred (Biologically Charged) Space in Architecture: Ron Eglash - Professor of Ethnology / Mathematics, Department of Science and Technology Studies, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI), Troy,NY USA. Presents his Fulbright Study on FRACTALITY IN THE ARCHITECTURAL PLAN and LAYOUT OF VILLAGES IN AFRICA - see film at link
Click TED Film at link

This perfectly embedded or braiding self similar structure defining LIFE in architectures - compares perfectly - to how Fractal is the CUP WITHIN THE CUP - 'GRAIL' geometry of how CHARGE (spirit) enters DNA:

... even as fractal bodily BLISS electrically and measureably triggers exactly THAT long wave embedding -psychokinetically empowering - grail-defining - gravity making - immortalizing - BRAID in DNA!
Now is the perfect time - to join us to experience this REAL GRAIL STORY: Holy Grail Sites AND Science in South France - June 5-12, 08 (Film Clips here from last year!)... our South France 2008 - Science and Experience of the HOLY GRAIL IN THE BLOOD - tour and conference .see 2008 June Info. in collaboration with Roger Green -

For the trip logistics:
Join us to ask YOUR questions about the MEANING OF THE MYSTERIES! - The original first real grail science in the blood essential - article - with film:

Our recent article - - to which this article is an addend - reviews how Nassim Haramein - , usefully supports THE FRACTAL UNIVERSE and THE FRACTAL VACUUM - ideas, but becomes profoundly confused saying the vacuum geometry is a TETRAHEDRAL 'fractal' (bit of a contradiction in terms .. sort of like 'military intelligence') - because he does not understand the physics of the GOLDEN MEAN. See below.

This means the geometry of the vacuum AND the universe - which DOES support/ create stable gravity (and LIFE!) must be - DODECAHEDRAL - see pics below - a superset of the tetra. The only way to create harmonics in multiples of Golden Ratio is the embedded/fractal/stellated/interdigitated DODECA/ICOSA (buy the kit) , and very definitely NOT the tetra / octa / cube. By teaching this properly - we help teach the klutzy misinformed - (not knowing why any object falls to the ground) atmosphere losing, PHYSICISTS of Earth - how to fix the Earth Grid magnetic dodeca- to make the gravity to INVITE OUR ATMOSPHERE TO RETURN!!

Not to mention the idiot - rain and life force destroying, architects / agronomists and city planners who make buildings and farms and cities and power grids into these deathmaking squares!

They don't even have the first ELECTRIC clue WHY every living protein molecule uses GOLDEN RATIO - BUT they would arrogantly, incorrectly and fatally presume to tell you how to shape your house, your farm, your power grid and your city! The poisonous mistake of living near STEEL or ALUMINUM begins with the stupidity of not realizing WHY the heat which pushed each of those molecules OUT of fractality destroyed the ability of LIFE to breath CHARGE - what you call spirit - THRU IT! Truly this ability to breath charge efficiently by being electrically fractal - which causes life and gravity - is also the definition of spirituality, and all sustainability!

(The SECRET OF LIFE): Molecules which are fractally arranged like a rose, distribute charge perfectly like a gentle breath - this then is precisely the PHYSICS which makes any THING - INHABITABLE (actually defining what it means to 'in-carnate': to take residence inside of) !


Once you get the principle - the poisonous and disempowering -& WAR CAUSING - parts of religion which are miracle and personality worship - are replaced with the self empowering blood igniting / immortalizing fractal physics of BLISS itself (the hygiene of how to attract charge / chi / spirit by BEING fractal).

This is why it is SO important we teach the SCIENCE upon which all this is based:

... otherwise governments and universities will continue poisoning the souls of YOUR children - by not knowing the physics of what it is for DNA and biology to HAVE a soul: The self sorting implosion / fusion / holy communion of CHARGE called CHI or SPIRIT or collective conscious electric field - where fractality puts 'HEART' - 'a coeur/a core' into biology, your house, your village, your planet, your heart, and your DNA!

Websites like:
while they support the correct notion THE UNIVERSE IS FRACTAL - they ALSO appear to still ignore the physics (intro to the math - below) which suggests WHY it must be fractal: in order to stabilize gravity.

-next Paragraph - exerpted from

4. The cover of Nature Magazine announced THE UNIVERSE IS DODECAHEDRAL - while the cover of New Scientist magazine announced THE UNIVERSE IS FRACTAL. What is the one way - they BOTH could be right? If the best (electric compressibility) Fractal in 3D is the stellated Dodec - AND - if this is the only way the wave system of the universe COULD emerge from chaos IN to stable gravity!


As we explain and graphically demonstrate at
the only way atoms (and anything) makes gravity is by shaping its inside (nucleus) to be SELF SIMILAR (fractal) to its outside (electrons)! That fractality causes the constructive collapse of charge - which was Einstein's definition of gravity. Below here now - we present recent mathematic physics (El Naschie / Lisi etc) which evidence this principle: FRACTALITY IS THE ELECTRIC CAUSE OF GRAVITY (and all the universe's centripedal forces like consciousness and life!).

Visual evidence- the electron shells (above s,p,d,f) above nest platonically..

below- note the NUCLEAR HADRONS (proton + neutrons) are ALSO platonically arranged.( see Moon / Univ Chicago pic, 21st Century Magazine).

References on Moon's 3D Platonic Model of the Nucleus:

Dan Winter challenges physics to 1. quantify this obvious SELF SIMILARITY between electrons charge symmetry vs. nucleus charge symmetry,

and 2. show that in fact there can be ANY other reason for this SELF SIMILARITY (between electron shells vs nucleus) if not to CAUSE the gravity which holds atoms together! (constructive charge collapse= charge implosion >where charge compression becomes the charge acceleration which DEFINES gravity?)

Speaking of the serious science- on a related note: Re: Water,
Dr. S. Krippner, -via Steve Hart, Saybrook Graduate School, San Francisco,wrote -
> An associate, Liza Behrendt, founded a visionary art project called Beauty of Water [] that focuses attention on appreciation for water around the planet. I shared a recent conversation thread - Please email her directly if you approve her request:

To which I (Dan Winter) responded with link ( ) on water structure...

Then Liz @ Beauty of Water wrote:
> Hi Steve and Dan, Thanks very much for your messages, I'm delighted to receive them. I am writing from India, ....The email address Stanley wrote in his message is correct,....> Steve, thanks much for the administration of this.
>> Dan, I would like to post your comments on the project website "Why Water?" page. Steve had included them in his message to me. I have generally not been including raw links, and the one link I have included thus far in the section I'd like to post this is to an artist's site... I'd like to think about how to present this including the link (perhaps with your name) and keep in the intentions of the section of the site while sharing this valuable, interesting info. ...I'll send another message when I've posted it. And I'll subscribe you to the infrequently sent newsletter list. Thanks and welcome!, Warmly, Liza

then - Dan Winter wrote (summary of the FRACTAL PHYSICS OF WATER...): "very happy to share - with your group
We started the picture of water at, , showing why the dodeca shape of waters magic clathrate cage, (key to flanagans microhydrin ability to scavenge free radicals
+ 'electronic biology and cancer' A New Theory of Cancer - (triplet state electron perfects charge distribution in water -ending cancer)-with Szent Gyorgi's nobel work - .
The bigger picture is what that geometry (in water) accomplishes: it is called phase conjugation ,
which not only has optical - but magnetic and electric phase conjugates
This (fractality) essentially marks the origin of perfecting charge distribution, thus defining the geometry of all life: , (film etc)
Fractality in water is measured as redox potential - because charge distribution efficiency - is functionally equivalent to 'electron availability to react' - (an electron is a black hole - and therefore fractal)
We study this geometry to learn how to get fractal

Our australia group is demonstrating ability to measure life (freshness)
commercially by phase conjugate capacitive coupling..

Incidently this circuit potentially measures the presence of deep underground water, (Researcher Rob Goulay):

- We need to understand WHY deep water rivers are measureable as phase conjugate (charge distributing efficiently and therefore electrically FRACTAL!):

No river of magnetism or blood is different than water- all sustainability is defined by fractality.
For example - Peter, at
admits only in private - that LIKE poles of biologic magnetite (PHASE CONJUGATING)
is the principle of their famous and well researched water purifier..

Joe (of the so called "Joe cell"-41000 links) uses stronger magnetic phase conjugation - ( he calls it octa magnetics)
I saw him drink the water out the other end of a sewage sludge pipe..with that purifier..

The phase conjugating 'flow form' or 'unicorns horn' , is just an intro to higher flux densities - purifying capability..

When the scientist gariev first measured (soluble?) DNA making black holes (gravity)
he announced the principle was phase conjugation
- the 2 opposing phase conjugate cones (yod and vau) naming not just yalweh -(&shiva) but more accurately
the ('god'making) quality of blood.. This is the alKHEMic symmetry..(khem means access to black hole..). The 2 opposing triangles in the flag of Isreal, AlphaDraconis, Star-Tetra significantly represent the goal to have blood which has these two perfectly opposing phase conjugate cones of gravity making phase conjugation. This is why it was so important to remember how to braid those exact angles into watery DNA that those plasma domains became the origin of alphabets.

PS. The australia group is well supported and we expect to have a world leading research lab there..., dan winter

RE: Is Fractality the (Electric) Cause of GRAVITY - update on the SCIENCE..
(feel free to break out your math background here..) : "... Physicist Andrei Linde, and others, have found fractals helpful in modeling the behavior of the early universe. Their work suggests that the fractal nature of space may actually be the cause of gravity. More recently; the work of Alain Connes has shown that noncommutative spaces evolve fractality naturally. The Mandelbrot Set is the most complex fractal object which can be represented in two dimensions. In my opinion, the Mandelbrot set and its derivative forms (including the Fractal Butterfly) have a lot to convey, which aids our understanding the nature of space, and will help solve the riddle of gravity. Recent observations of the large-scale distribution of matter in space show it to have a fractal pattern. "

now we present: a review/update of recent private correspondance with Professor El Naschie-

from the initial query with Dan Winter: Is Fractality the (Electric) Cause of Gravity..?

as a follow up - to the Implosion Group article/newsletter:
Caught in the Matrix

And the dialog from the magazine article about Garrett Lisi's 'Surfer Dude' E8- famous THEORY OF EVERYTHING

in which he noted the symmetry of all the fundamental particles - including potentially - the gravitational components were accounted for in one symmetry array. As you can see by the extensive dialog (bottom here) from that magazine article - it is widely acknowledged that the E8 Theory of Everything- rests largely on the shoulders of Professor El Nashie's lifetime of work on Golden Mean based Lie symmetries.

At Dr. El Naschie's request- (read below) this conversation is made available to serious scientists for serious comment only. This does not mean (as I would interpret) that comments must all be pure mathematic critique- but at least focused on pure principle - (not personality based less fundamental concerns..).

Dan Winter,

Feb 18, 08>

El Naschie's earlier paper said: Dimensional symmetry breaking, information and fractal gravity in Cantorian space "Dimensional symmetry breaking, information and fractal gravity in Cantorian space, Abstract:We derive the exact expectation value and standard deviation for the dimensionality of Cantorian spacetime. Connections to time symmetry breaking, information and the generalization of complex numbers are considered. Finally a link between general relativity and Cantorian spacetime is proposed which amounts to the claim that fractalization is the origin of gravity."


The following correspondance is approximately in chronological order, the good Professors (3) responses are color coded for convenience.

to Prof. M. S. El Naschie, from Dan Winter - - thanks for sending your paper (twice)


Transfinite Harmonization

> I would like to do a review of your paper at
> for our physicists conference budapest (mentioned there.. )
> would you consider helping by commenting further on your statement: "fractalization is the origin of gravity.""
> --
> of course if you would consider further comment on your paper in more laymans terms.. that would be super..
> --
> 2.
> if as you suggest.. coupling unification in a way resolves to a
> goldenmean scaling of the fine structure constant...
> does this in any way relate to the attempted ?-derivation
> of the fine structure constant from the self organizing
> translation of vorticity on the surface of the torus
> discussion at
> ?
> suggesting why we map the golden mean path onto the torus..
> for the origin of symbol
> because that is the symmetry index to all plasma domains?
> (biologic fractal charge compression in DNA...
> --
> fractalization is the origin of gravity."
> (was the same as the title of my paper last time...for budapest physics conference..
> --
> appreciate your patience with my more geometric approach..
> dan winter
> --
related note: >
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: fractal electric cause of gravity?
> Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 12:45:45 +0200
> From: Dan Winter <>
> To:
> hi dr. rowlands
> I was just chatting with nasseim harramein - about your presentation at liege
> (along with vanessa hill
> he mentioned exciting prospects for discovering fractal
> field - vs gravity / black hole production in dna..
> would you be open to chatting about
> electric geometric models accounting for
> potential gravity wells in dna (peter gariev's measures..
> (self similarity electrically causes gravity
> vs
> finding that gravity making fractality - in the electrical geometry of dna..
> dan winter

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Fwd: fractal electric cause of gravity?]
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:31:06 EST
From: Professor El Naschie

Dear Dr. Winter:
Thank you very much for your letter which was forwarded to me in Sharm Sheikh, Sinai, Egypt where I have been giving an opening lecture in a conference organized by the Egyptian Atomic Energy Agency. I am afraid my talk was too abstract and mathematical for such Engineering and applied conferences, but they insisted that I participate and I couldn’t say no as usual; although the net benefit from all these activities is very meager to me and to others.

First, allow me to introduce myself. I am really a professor of Structure Engineering and Applied Mechanics and both constitute my formal education. Theoretical Physics in general and High Energy Physics in particular are more or less a hobby but a very serious one indeed for which I have been devoting increasingly more time. In fact unreasonably more time.

Of course I am open to any suggestions from your side and I am honored that you find any merit in my ideas of Cantorian spacetime and its connection to transfinite exceptional Lie groups. The paper you refer to is a very old paper of mine. The basic ideas are still of course valid but I remember vaguely that the first version of this paper was published in Bio-mathematics, an Elsevier Journal. It is probably ten years old and could be older. I think I have published similar versions with different accents. One in Vienna in a proceedings for a conference on Theory of Information and I remember the Prince of Lichtenstein (Dr. Prince Albert) attended this conference. The late Prof. Michael Conrad was in attendance as well as Otto Rössler. Well all this is beside the point now. The idea is of course totally non-metaphysical and it is anchored in the tradition of thinking about gravity in the fashion of Albert Einstein.

You see as speed comes near to the speed of light, matter becomes much heavier. This is a well-known result of Einstein’s relativity. Consequently, clocks run slower. In other words time runs slow. Now we reverse the situation. Let us make time run slower. Consequently matter becomes heavier. Here comes the first idea. Suppose time is a fractal? Consequently time fluctuates. Therefore a fractal time will create gravity effect due to the change in the weight of the object subjected to fractal time. Therefore, and assuming the equivalence between gravity and inertia, we will have produced gravity effects by assuming merely that time is a fractal. But why is time fractal? Here is the second idea. At very high energy, time is spatialized. That means the signature of the matrix becomes all of the same sign. That is the idea behind imaginary time and the so-called Euclidean quantum mechanics. The first to use that was not Hawking. It was Herman Weyl. Later it was Wick, the Italian who used it in quantum field theory. I use something called complex time. The person who is an expert in this field whom I introduced a long time ago is Leonardo Sigalotti. He is Italian who is now working in the Center for Physics in Caracas, Venezuela. We know for sure that at high energy space is fractal. This is enshrined in the non-differentiability of the path integral of Richard Feynman. The final idea and maybe the most important comes from Van der Wealls’ forces. These forces are the result of molecular chaos. They are the result of non-equilibrium in a very large number of particles. If they would be put in a definite orderly form, they will be in equilibrium and there will be no net force resultant. The resultant is zero. However, because they are chaotic, there is a non-zero resultant. Richard Feynman surmised that gravity must be a fluctuation of something. In analogy to Van der Wealls forces, I completed his conjecture by saying that gravity is the fluctuation of fractal time or more generally the spatialized spacetime. Feynman’s something is my Cantorian spacetime. You can read more about Feynman’s initial idea in his book entitled: “Lectures on Gravity”. It is not a very well-known book but it is magnificent. As for the golden mean, the exceptional Lie groups and all of my recent work, I will explain all that in future correspondence.

With my very best wishes,
professor el naschie

Dan Winter

thanks for taking so much time and patience in your reply..

your writings have made you something of a hero for me..
"fractalization is the origin of gravity"

( El Naschie: "Dimensional symmetry breaking, information and fractal gravity in Cantorian space, Abstract:We derive the exact expectation value and standard deviation for the dimensionality of Cantorian spacetime. Connections to time symmetry breaking, information and the generalization of complex numbers are considered. Finally a link between general relativity and Cantorian spacetime is proposed which amounts to the claim that fractalization is the origin of gravity." )
In the subject article

we applaud those who suggest you should be in Nobel Prize country with Garrett Lisi's E8 unified field geometrics-
since YOU showed(?) the underlying symmetries of the LIE groups..were essentially GOLDEN RATIO based(?)

clearly - you should be involved in our budapest conferences.. the group we mention in related articles..

(Istvan: suggest we - invite Prof Nashie to present: "fractalization is the origin of gravity." ?

1. Fractal Vacuum:Fractality Ultimately Defines Energy Efficiency AND Sustainability-&amp;Consciousness?
with Douglass White - an advanced physicist - formerly with the TM movement (like our other friends Alex Hankey, Istvan Dienes- and now Fred Travis). Douglass's quite wonderful discussion of the serious

2. Hex vs Pent: Emerging from the MATRIX: Brainwave Octaves vs Phi-Proof with Fractal Synth
with Douglass White - an advanced physicist - formerly with the TM movement (like our other friends Alex Hankey, Istvan Dienes- and now Fred Travis). Douglass's quite wonderful discussion of the serious

4. Charge Self Similarity/Fractality:Cause Gravity/Fusion/Phase Conjugation-THE EXPERIMENTAL PROOF
for Strategic Research First session- Promising new approaches towards the Grand Unification in Physics Chairman: Istvan Dienes, Matti Pitkanen PhD: A master formula for S-matrix in Topological Geometry-

8. The FRACTAL FIELD:Redefining the FIELD of HEALING and Consciousness+the EDIN BO UR G -Fractal Lens:Alien Attractor
for Strategic Research First session- Promising new approaches towards the Grand Unification in Physics Chairman: Istvan Dienes, Matti Pitkanen PhD: A master formula for S-matrix in Topological Geometry-

Nassim Haramein has been championing the fractal nature of the vacuum..

in the subject paper -
(where we applaud your work

I suggest however that Nassim's idea that the structure of the vacuum - is tetrahedral, is inconsistent with the fractal compression -required for gravity production.. because only pent / dodec/icos structures (unlike tetra/cube/octa) create the necessary (non destructive compression of) golden ratio

from my very simplistic approach, I had further suggested a perhaps elegant proof that fractality causes gravity

by suggesting we quantify the extent to which nuclear (hadron-proton/neutron array) symmetries are precisely fractal or self similar (perfected by golden ratio) to their surrounding electrons ..

and therefore how atoms make gravity.

as we depict more pictorially than mathematically-at

how complicated can it be to quantify the extent to which nuclear symmetries
(clearly hadrons are platonic and golden ratio nested - per chemist moon at univ chicago
pics there)

are self similar to their (clearly self similarly platonic) surrounding electrons..

there - I suggest their orbital radii ratios (inside to outside) should fit log functions of golden ratio.. (as the stellation of the internal dodec/icos hadron symmetries would require to the also dodec/icos d/f electron symmetry)

but have not yet proved it.

(have chatted with Dr Ary Goldberger - about how he quantified
the self similarity of the fibres of perkinjole -where Hearts get voltage
{from gravity?}
and with Dr. Korotkov - about how he quantifies medical aura measure
/ GDV for fractality to measure peak perception )

I would obviously be badly in need of your skill - applied mathematics
to prove my hypothesis that the way atoms make gravity
is by being fractal / self similar using golden ratio
(non destructive collapse - allows charge compression to become acceleration..
recursive constructive
heterodyning by golden ratio of phase velocities?- is the hypothesis-
this we hypothesize is how DNA has been measured making black holes / gravity..)

My background is electrical engineering, and now biofeedback.

Looking at Bill Tiller's measurements ('Conscious Acts of Creation')
proving human attention causes charge to compress...

I was so moved to find golden ratio was the essential identifier of the fractal charge compression - called peak human attention..

(bliss / peak attention = golden ratio in EEG power spectra = charge implosion?!)

I suggest that (golden ratio ) geometry identifies the non destructive..compression
of charge Einstein used? to describe gravity?

also then - from my simplistic approach..

I see that TIME- essentially simply names rotation rate
and since I see matter as the compression of charge,
then what is rotating called time - is essentially charge..

from this model - then fractality in both time and space
is the only symmetry which emerges from chaos - self organizes..

(by inviting implosive compression)

-examples of fractal time (golden ratio)-book: Spiral Calendar

synchronicity - constructive convergence in time - requires fractality...

so - seeing the gravity effect when time is fractal becomes simpler?
namely that implosive compression is invited by golden ratio..

in this model - implosive charge compression essentially defines gravity..

mass creation increases (inertia stored by rotation) in fractal symmetry
because the centripedal electric forces of gravity
only stabilize rotation (mass) when (time /rotation rate) is also fractal.

Summary -
Charge which can accelerate constructively thru the speed of light,

(by Golden Ratio /fractal constructive phase velocity heterodyning)

causes the centripedal forces of
a) gravity
b) life / consciousness / perception

I hypothesize this accounts for the profound nature of phase conjugation
which Peter Gariev's is suggesting accounts for his measures
of (Golden Ratio based) DNA making black holes..

at first this model seems too simplistic
(Golden Ratio - at the base of both gravity and consciousness
and all centripedal paths out of chaos)

yet the essential symmetry of golden ratio
(stellate the pent dodecahedron)
key to non-destructive charge compression
seems to be behind
Poincare S3 / cold fusion Palladium/
and DNA
and the structure of the universe and the vacuum.. and the d/f electron..
and the nuclear hadron..

from my simple view as an electrical engineer
(we take a power spectra of anything.. look for golden ratio-
how we found bliss- literally)

why else do all life AND all gravity making systems
use golden ratio..

Many examples of golden ratio capacitance fabricating gravity (links above)
what else would explain this..
electric fractality causes gravity..

you are probably our best hope to put more mathematics behind all this..
(we do believe electric field generation in circuit design
prove the hypothesis as well..- aka electric thrusters..)

I (we) hope you will continue to be patient in your reply..

I cc this to our friends (Istvan Dienes, Czaba Varga et al) hosting the
Budapest physics and consciousness conferences
(with Fred Wolf, John Hagelin - this year..)

Hope it is ok with you to include some friends who have been in these dialogs
in our correspondance...

Appreciate the privelege of dialog

Dan Winter
(back in S.France from the Australia conferences)

Frank then also wrote, to Dan Winter and Professor El Naschie

> From: "Frank van den Bovenkamp"
> <>
> To: <>
> CC: Professor El Naschie
> Subject: Re: copy of letter from dan winter- re - fractal gravity - reply to your kind note..]
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 02:33:02 +0100
> Dan,
> also c/o Prof. El Naschi,
> I kindly suggest that you specifically refer to readily available scientific evidence which in my opinion fully acknowledges your own hypotheses on fractal gravity / biology, e.g. at
> adding that the combined 3D golden mean (synergetic)
> and
> octave (time-space matrix) vacuum equilibrium is
> beautifully
> reminiscent of Shrii P.R. Sarkars breakthrough
> cosmology
> (e.g., as well as strongly
> supported by
> front end heart and brain biometrics
> hope this will help focus on some core issues, like
> we were
> discussing, is cantorian space referring to, or even
> identical to
> the coherently activated vacuum emerging from, and
> controlled
> above proven symmetry operations?
> (leading to "anomalous" effects like life force,
> gravitation,
> self awareness, and in fact time and space itself..)
> to Prof. El Naschi - how does in your view Cantorian space,
> and generally the fractal nature of gravity
> explain LIFE?
> best regards
> Frank van den Bovenkamp
> Heart Coherence Team
> tel.: 0031-(0)53-4361096
> fax: 0031-(0)53-4361101
> website:
> email:

reply from Professor El Naschie:

Dear Frank:

Thank you very much for your kind letter. I find all good questions as well as the answers apart of the questions thrown by your work and the work of Dan Winter extremely stimulating. You are both more than scientists. You are artists. In other words you are a source of inspiration. Inspiration is nothing but dust coming from the well of creation. So without you and people like you, we cannot make advances in uncharted seas. This is your strength. Our strengths we as engineers and rather limited theoretical physicists is in the very narrow scope which we investigate. What happens is that we take a drop from the seas of ideas which you are throwing at us and try to analyze them in the most stringent way. We cannot cope in general with more than a single subject at the time. We are by and large reductionists. However, now and then ever hundred years or so, there is no way to go forward without a wholistic thinking. There is no way of understanding anything new and deep without an inspiring new order of principle.

Now to your last profound question: How does life emerge? I am basically a structure engineer; something more or less like Buckmeisterfuller or Luigi Nervi. Take a beam and put a load on it in the middle and if the load is very large and the beam is sufficiently weak, it will break. However, if you curve the beam to an arc the load can be sustained for the same strength of the beam. What happens is form. Different forms create different properties. Take an egg. And try to press it uniformly between your hands. You have to be Hercules to crush it. However hit it with your finger somewhere in the middle and it immediately bursts. Different configuration of matter and different configurations of force field produce different and unexpected behavior. Our space time is four-dimensional as far as we are concerned. But the particle of which we are made inhabits regions of different dimensions. At infinite resolution, the dimensions are infinite. The complexity arising from these transfinite infinite dimensional micro space time give rise in a coarse graining to the phenomena of life. It is a trivial observation that the electron is the same for whatever. It is the same for wood, iron and flesh. However, few electrons with few neutrons and protons give completely new complex phenomenology. Suddenly we distinguish between hydrogen and oxygen. And by adding hydrogen and oxygen in a chemical way, we don’t get hydrogen plus oxygen. We get something we call water. And without water we wouldn’t have life. What is DNA? It is a helix. What is a helix? It is a form. Just like a spiral is a form. Strangely the most famous spiral exhibits a golden mean structure. Thus from the infinity which is a division by zero where zero is not nothing but something we can reconstruct many things in a philosophical way. Alas! This is not sufficient for a technical advancement. We need more specifics for which we need stringent mathematics and super logic. As one of my mentors (Renee Thom) used to say, Descartes explained everything but was not able to calculate anything. On the other hand, Newton calculated everything but was not able to explain anything. A human science by which I mean is useful for the human body and soul must have both. In other words it must have: the explanation and the calculation; the method of Newton and the thinking of Descartes. That is why we need Dan Winter and we need Steven Wolfram. That is why people like Einstein and like Richard Feynman were truly great. Sometimes we become extremists in one or the other direction and then you have great minds like Heisenberg's and Neil's Bohr but then they became dogmatic about their Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. Dogmatic thinking and mixing science with politics and funding ruin science. That is the weakness of the great American science. That is how great ideas of exceptional people like those working in superstrings become a camp or an army. I think I drifted away from your original question and it is obvious that I cannot give a final answer but I hope that I succeeded in giving you food for thoughts about this subject.

Kleist has written long ago a beautiful article in German the essence of which is that while you are writing, new ideas are simply created in your brain. So I thank you for giving me the chance to write this letter to you and please, although I don’t know Dan Winter, please convey respects to him.

Best regards,

M. S. El Naschie

then on Feb 17, to dr. el naschie

dan winter


frank and I are grateful for your dialog.. and much need the stimulation of your
discipline ..
I may have some practical electrical background, but your mathematics skill
is for us - something of the holy grail ..
2 simple questions:

1. do you agree - that
golden ratio based fractal self similarity can be practically applied / mathematically proven
to be functionally the ELECTRICAL CAUSE OF GRAVITY?
2. is it ok if we share exerpts of our discussion - respectfully on the web?


dan winter

ps.shall we chat on the phone?

note how you continue to be something of the hero in the dialog which continues to unfold at

(surfer dude...

from Prof El Naschie on Feb 18, 08 -

Dear Dr. Winter,

Thank you for your email. Let me attempt to answer your first questions first. I
don’t know if I agree or disagree that golden ratio based fractal self similarity can be practically applied and mathematically proven to be functionally the electrical cause of gravity. I have to go step by step and make no jumps in analyzing the question and then attempting to find the answer. To start with: why base self-similarity which is a very wide concept on the golden ratio which is much narrower?

1.If we start by rabbits, camels, dogs or any configuration and go on reducing it in size indefinitely by splitting each camel into three camels and take one of these camels out of our set, then we end up in all events with a cantor dust. It makes no difference what we start with. The differences between the objects will disappear in the limit. In fact we could start with President Bush or Obama and we will end in all events with the same Cantor dust. If our process is random and we use uniform distribution, then the Hausdorff dimension of the cantor dust that we obtained will be equal to the golden mean. Two Americans proved this theorem namely, Mauldin and Williams. By pure coincidence I proved the theorem in four dimensions and later on realized that I generalized Mauldin-Williams theorem without knowing. That was the start of my work. The Hausdorff dimension of a 4-dimensional cantor set is necessarily equal to 1 + the golden mean all to the power of 3. This is exactly equal to 4 + the golden mean to the power of 3 which is exactly equal to 4.236067989. Please work it out yourself. Interestingly, this Hausdorff dimension lives inside a smaller dimension, namely exactly 4. Four is the topological embedding dimension. It is similar to a melon. The outer surface is smooth and the dimension is 2. But the inside of the melon is non-smooth and the dimension is more than 2. The whole object is of a dimension equal to 3. Similarly, our spacetime, I reasoned much much later, has a topological dimension equal 4 and a Hausdorff dimension equal to 4 + the golden mean to the power of 3. And the whole thing can be embedded in different ways including 5 + 5 to the power of 3 dimensions and so on….In fact we can reach the dimensionality of electromagnetic field that way which is equal to 20 multiplied by 1 + plus Phi all to the power of 4. This gives exactly 137.082039325. We can go on reasoning things in a similar but more complex manner until we reach the conclusion that Newton’s dimensionless gravity constant is equal to 2 to the power of the inverse electromagnetic fine structure constant (the one I have just mentioned) minus ten which gives approximately ten to the power of 38 as is well-known experimentally. The theory from which I obtained all the result I named E-Infinity theory and when specializing it to quantum field theory, I call it quantum golden field theory. So in a sense you are right after all. But the way you wrote your sentence is rather provocative to the mainstream physicists. I am not saying that how I am doing it is less provocative to them, but there is a difference which at least excludes the common accusation against non-mainstream theory of being esoteric supernatural, or simply descriptive non-mathematical work of fantasy as if fantasy is something one has to be ashamed of while lack of it, is a quality about which one has to be proud.

2.As to your second question, if we could share our discussion with experts, so in principle I don’t mind provided they are really experts and that we don’t drift into any unfounded allegations about anyone and more importantly as long as the language of discussion is elevated and respectful of everybody and conforms to the highest standard of conduct. I have seen frequently language used on the www which I would like to distance myself from. In fact I have never involved myself with any discussions with anybody on the web and I avoided all my life to publish anything on the web or the different blogs where some people confuse rudeness with scientific exactness. So as long as we are dealing with a select of true scientists, I don’t mind at all sharing our discussion.

With my very best wishes.

M. S. El Naschie


(So please - if you would like us to refer your comments back - it must be serious science only!)

Finally - for your convience here we Exerpt (highlights) here from the ongoing dialog - in Magazine Article: orignal magazine article: " (Garrett Lisi - E8 ) Surfer dude stuns physicists with theory of everything particularly as the commentaries concern El Naschie, Winter and others..

which was highlighted in the original Implosion Group Newsletter -

commentary with the original publication: (commenter named at the bottom of each)

orignal magazine article: " Surfer dude stuns physicists with theory of everything...An impoverished surfer has drawn up a new theory of the universe, seen by some as the Holy Grail of physics, which has received rave reviews from scientists."


"There are two books published recently in China supporting the line of research of Dr.Lisi. Both books are edited by a well-known Chinese Professor of Mathematics & Nanotechnology, Prof. Ji-Huan He and both are produced by China Culture and Science Publishing. The first is titled: “Beyond the 2006 Physics Nobel Prize for COBE – an introduction to E-Infinity spacetime theory” ISBN 988 – 97681 – 9 – 4/0.4 (2006) The second is titled: “Transfinite Physics” ISBN 988 – 98846 – 5 – 8 (2005). Both books have a large number of reprinted papers by a Cambridge Professor, M. S. El Naschie an inventor of a new theory of spacetime based on Cantor sets and the golden mean.
Posted by G.D. Wu on January 31, 2008 4:41 PM

Before Lisi’s story, I would not have touched the Telegraph even with my gloves on. But now I recognize it as a respectable internet newspaper for the educated and scientifically interested. It is doing a better job than some classrooms in respectable universities as far as broad scientific education is concerned. We have to stop self-replication. Most of the professors think of themselves as cloning machines to produce students who are mostly bad replicas of themselves. We should be grateful for the Telegraph for drawing our attention to someone like Lisi whom I never heard of before and very unlikely would have heard about him at all. Instead of being indignant at Lee Smolin, we should thank him for his open-mindedness. Instead of being outraged by a revolutionary theory coming from a Moslem scientist like Mohamed Elnaschie, we should wish that more Moslems like him set an example for the rest. Finally, I wish that the establishment in the West take notice of the tremendous development and contribution done by the Soviet and Russian schools. This is particularly directed to Lisi, El Naschie and others. In particular, the Russian P-adic quantum mechanic has been almost completely ignored. Maybe the Telegraph can change that.
A. Pavlovich Posted by Alexi Pavlovich on February 14, 2008 10:48 AM


The empire of the mainstream (where mediocrity reigns) is striking back. Lisi is “No Einstein” is the new headline. But this is what was said about Einstein himself. Until this moment there are people who claim that special relativity and general relativity are wrong. There are of course problems with Lisi’s proposal. He didn’t cure quantum mechanics. Probability with a phase for instance is a strange concept. But this is what ‘tHooft and various other scientists attempted to solve. Fuzzy logic, fuzzy geometry and fuzzy topology based on fuzzy set theory could replace quantum mechanics. El Naschie in the University of Frankfurt, Germany proposed such fuzzy geometry for spacetime which is called fuzzy kähler manifold. His paper was chosen as the most highly cited paper by Thomson ISI Essential Science Indicators. ( Link ) link

I think Lisi should go on with his research and forget what people say. He should remember what Richard Feynman said: “What do you care about what other people say”. Fuzzy E8 and E-Infinity are new ideas entering physics and this will make some people less than happy. ( Link ) link. New ideas are urgently needed. This was the message at the turn of the century which was sent by one of the greatest theoretical physicists of all time, Nobel Laureate Steven Weinberg, in an article published in Scientific America. New ideas will never evolve from the traditional establishment, with a very few exceptional minds such as ‘tHooft and similarly inclined people.
Ed Flores , Posted by Ed Flores on January 22, 2008 4:54 PM

I think I can prove that El Naschie’s discovery of E8 unification preceded that of Lissi by several years at least and go beyond it. First El Naschie unlike Lissi understood the role of transfinite harmony via the golden mean. Second El Naschie worked with the bulk represented by E8E8 manifold and the holographic boundary represented by Klein’s modular curve or SL(2,7) simple linear Lie symmetry group. Subsequently he showed that the dimension of E8E8 multiplied with the instanton number of the Kähler manifold corresponding to the holographic boundary is equal to the dimension of the holographic boundary multiplied with the instanton number of E8E8 manifold. In other words, every physical field of fundamental interaction is a topological deformation of any other. That means all is derivable of all. This is far ahead of Lissi. El Naschie found long ago that the masses of all elementary and composite particles such as Mesons are obtained from the ratios of the various topological invariants of the involved Lie groups and golden mean scaling after introducing the fundamental concept of average symmetry. Finally I should mention that El Naschie extended his work to things which are in essence generalizations of the exceptional Lie groups namely 2 Stein and 3 Stein spaces.

All these papers are on the net and Elsevier Science Direct but just in case, and as a service to our community, I will give some details:
1. Holographic dimensional reduction. Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (CS&F), 29
p. 816-822 2006.
2. Superstrings, entropy and elementary particle content of the standard model. CS&F, 29, p. 48-54 2006.
3. Average symmetry, stability and ergodicity of multidimensional Cantor sets. Il Nuovo Cimento, Vol. 109 B, N.2. Feb. 1994.
4. One and two Stein space hierarchies in high energy physics. CS&F doi:10.1016/j.chaos.2007.09.051.
5. A review of E-infinity theory. CS&F 19, p. 209-236 2004.
6. On a class of fuzzy Kähler-like manifolds. CS&F, 26, p. 257-261 2005.
Posted by Tareq Khan on January 22, 2008 9:42 AM


Since the New Scientist magazine is refusing to publish any comments connected to Prof. Mohamed El Naschie and his work on the exceptional E8 symmetry groups, I ask you all if they would not have published a long article if his first name would not be Mohamed and his passport would not be Egyptian and his main concern peace in the Middle East? Try to be honest with yourself and answer this question and then you will hopefully write to the New Scientist that they should be ashamed of themselves for not at least publishing another point of view. The opinion of the majority of the world’s population, the opinion of what they call the third world.

A Nobel prize for a Mohamed – that would be the day!
Posted by Islam Abdullah on January 21, 2008 10:30 PM


Although both men are non-mainstream, more or less totally independent scholars, there is a difference between G. Lissi and M. El Naschie which I wonder if other readers may have noticed. Lissi is essentially a mathematical physicist in the first instance. El Naschie on the other hand is in the first place an engineering scientist which is noticeable from his approach to physics. I found that very clear from the following. El Naschie in his paper ‘On 336 Kissing spheres in 10 dimensions, 528 P-Brane states in 11 dimensions and the 60 elementary particles of the standard model’, published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, 24, pp. 447-457 uses the tangible and easily visualized concept of sphere Kissing to model massless particle states or massless gauge Bosons. The classical problem of sphere Kissing was solved for 3D by Newton and the answer is 12. El Naschie connected that to the 12 Bosons of the standard model and then went higher and higher with his dimensions. For E8 the Kissing number is 240. This is 8 less than the dimension of E8, namely 248. Now Lissi uses the same number 240. However Lissi thinks of it as the Roots number. Well, Root numbers and Kissing numbers are identical for the classical exceptional Lie symmetry groups. But Roots are vectors and thus more mathematical which appealed to Lissi more than Kissing numbers which Lissi never mentioned in his work. None the less, Kissing numbers may be more useful because in ten dimensions we have 336 of them which is exactly equal to the number of independent components of Riemann tensors in 8 dimensions while we know that E8 is the largest exceptional group and it is not easy to argue for say E9 although Nicolai in Einstein’s Max Plank Institute and El Naschie made a complex proposal for an E10 and E11 groups.

A similar observation regards numbers. El Naschie as a practically minded engineer deals masterly with numbers. By contrast Lissi loves Fiber Bundels concepts and numbers are secondary to him. However at the end, it is only 248 and 240 of E8 that work and the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

I hope these comments will stimulate more constructive discussion of the subject rather than talking about things which are neither here nor there.
Posted by Fareed Galal on January 21, 2008 2:19 PM

Hold it! – Before singing the Lissi and El Naschie songs of praise you should remember that they stood on the shoulders of giants. El Naschie himself admits being deeply indebted to W. Heisenberg, J. Wheeler, D. Finkelstein, J. Shwarz, M. Green. R. Penrose and G. ‘t Hooft. These are well known giants but there are also little and totally unknown giants. For instance one should never forget that an American lawyer who is a hobby group theoretist living in Atlanta worked on a very similar subject to that of Lissi. This lawyer’s name is Tony Smith and even the great D. Finkelstein refers to him in his classical book on quantum relativity published by Springer. Also I would like to see Lissi distancing himself from attacking super string theory and siding with loop quantum mechanics. For my money, Lie Smolin is one of the cleverest theoretical physicists of all time. He is well connected with the media, as well as with great scientists but he is quite over the top when it comes to the beautiful super string theory. I find El Naschie’s attitude towards super string theory healthier. He criticizes it but he likes it and uses it although his approach is nearer to loop quantum mechanics. It is true he works with infinite dimensional spacetime but the expectation value is D = 4. Also his E-infinity is a generalization of the symmetry of the platonic bodies with golden mean proportionalities. The edges and vertices resemble in this case a network. I recall in this connection El Naschie’s paper ‘Fuzzy Dodecahedron and quantum physics’ published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, 30, pp. 1025-1033 (2006). Similarly El Naschie wrote a paper on cosmic Da Vinci codes and another one entitled ‘The Fibonacci code behind super strings and P-Branes’ published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, 31, pp. 537-547 (2007). In other words, El Naschie is just finishing what the old Greek civilization started but at the end of the day, it was Lissi who drew our attention to all of that and whether he referred to Witten, Shwarz, Green and El Naschie or not, we must all thank and congratulate him.
Posted by David Grayson on January 20, 2008 8:45 PM


I think Dan Winter concentrated on the most important aspect of Mohamed El Naschie’s work which is the golden mean. Dan’s genius realized that the golden mean is more fundamental than El Naschie’s Cantor sets. In fact the golden mean already implies a random Cantor set because it is equal to the Hausdorff dimension as discovered by two American mathematicians, D. Mauldin and his student Whiliams and this is a few years before El Naschie. Also Dan, just like Mohamed, realized that the Greek were there before anyone else. The symmetry of the Platonic bodies was postulated to be the key for understanding the universe. The most fundamental of the platonic bodies are, by their very nature, golden mean proportioned. All that is totally missing from Lissi’s work, but again, just as Lissi overlooked the monumental work of El Naschie, El Naschie overlooked a beautiful paper by the American Frank Potter. The paper is entitled ‘Geometrical basis for the standard model’, published in the Int. Journal of Theoretical Physics, 33, p. 279-305, 1994. In fact it seems that El Naschie, using the number of vertexes, edges and faces added together reached the same conclusion as Potter but using a different method. Nevertheless, he should have referred to Potter’s work exactly as he is entitled to priority for his work on E8 unification implied by his E-infinity theory. I am also concerned that Lissi seems to be taking sides in the string-loop struggle. Lissi, without much justification disregards super strings. However El Naschie’s work clearly shows that super strings and Brane theories are essential ingredients in the complete picture. I wish everyone to read the wonderful book of Lie Smolin ‘The trouble with physics’ to see that one should be fair and open minded to new ideas. I wish also that Lie Smolin would take his own book seriously and look more objectively at strings, Brane and other theories such as that of Dan Winters.
Posted by Sam Jameson on January 18, 2008 9:46 PM


There might be some clues here

* line 134: The quantity of energy taken in or given out when electronic or other positions are shifted is always a "quantum" or some multiple thereof, but the vibratory or wavelike behavior of such units of energy is wholly determined by the dimensions of the material structures concerned. Such wavelike energy ripples are 860 times the diameters of the ultimatons, electrons, atoms, or other units thus performing. The never-ending confusion attending the observation of the wave mechanics of quantum behavior is due to the superimposition of energy waves: Two crests can combine to make a double-height crest, while a crest and a trough may combine, thus producing mutual cancellation.

* line 165: While the space charge of universal force is homogeneous and undifferentiated, the organization of evolved energy into matter entails the concentration of energy into discrete masses of definite dimensions and established weight--precise gravity reaction.

* line 170: Ultimatons do not describe orbits or whirl about in circuits within the electrons, but they do spread or cluster in accordance with their axial revolutionary velocities, thus determining the differential electronic dimensions. This same ultimatonic velocity of axial revolution also determines the negative or positive reactions of the several types of electronic units. The entire segregation and grouping of electronic matter, together with the electric differentiation of negative

source The UB

E8 could be all linked with the ultimaton the very nature of matter
Sevens Posted by sevens on January 15, 2008 8:53 PM


The important discovery of Garrett Lissi and Mohamed El Naschie regarding the incredible exceptional E8 of Lissi and E-infinity of El Naschie brought to mind the memory of an old story which I witnessed some 20 years ago. A very bright chap at Princeton worked on what became known as Quarternionic Quantum Mechanics and fields. Eventually he wrote a book which appeared in Oxford. He subsequently faced fierce opposition from some of his very powerful colleagues. Imagine what would have happened if he had written a book on octionic quantum field. This however is exactly what Lissi and El Naschie have rediscovered with a twist. Exceptional Lie groups are built on octonions. Incidentally quaternionic quantum mechanics also involves oconions but the unique character of octonionic quantum field theory was not that clear before Lissi’s work as well as El Naschie’s Cantorian spacetime.

It is great that there are brave people like Garrett and Mohamed who can turn the tide. They are exceptional in a way. One is exceptionally poor and the other exceptionally rich, or so we are led to believe. Could we also make an exception and give these two outsiders their due with the same generosity with which they have given us a new theory? I do not think it will happen, but let us hope that the basic character of human beings may evolve for the better just like the evolution now taking place in theoretical physics thanks to these two scientific nomads.

Posted by Charles Wright on January 15, 2008 2:55 PM


Dan Winter’s comments (posted Dec. 31, 2007) are only marginally right. Dan is of course well versed in many fields and cannot be taken lightly but Lissi was not only inspired by El Naschie’s work on the Golden mean (link). Once the role of the Golden mean is understood, it is all there in place and Lissi must have read at least most of El Naschie’s work.

The point is that starting from the order of E8 E8 which is given by 496 generators, El Naschie showed many years ago that the inverse electromagnetic fine structure constant is found when dividing this by 3 plus where = 0.61833989 is the Golden mean. In addition, using the exact transfinite expression El Naschie showed that the dimension of the exceptional Lie groups hierarchy 548.3281572 gives that of the compactified holographic Klein modular boundary by a simple Golden mean transformation, namely (548.3281572)(0.618033989) = 338.8854383. Transferring two more times gives the inverse electroweak coupling
(338.8854383)(0.618033989)(0.618033989) = 129.4427192 which is almost equal to the experimental volume found in CERN in Geneva for this and many other examples. Furthermore calling 496 the Bulk (or B) and knowing that all of particle physics are represented by the boundary Klein modular space, 336 + 3 = 339 degrees of freedom which he calls H, then it is children’s arithmetic to deduce the inverse electromagnetic constant 137 denoted E given that Einstein’s gravity, G, corresponds to 20 components. Using El Naschie’s notation, we could write a world formula
B = H + G + E
which means
496 = 339 + 20 + 137.
Said in another way, one can obtain any physical field from the rest by simple transformation. There is no need to insist on calling E8 E8 fundamental.

I think it is not only very unfair but totally unprofessional not to give due credit to the work of El Naschie particularly after I spoke with a colleague who attended a presentation of El Naschie’s work last week in Trieste, Italy (Jan 7-9 link) where it seems his lecture was particularly well received. Two recent papers by El Naschie give lucid exposition of his theory:
1. An outline for a quantum golden filed theory. Chaos, Solitons & Fractals
(2007) doi:10.1016/j:chaos.2007.09.092 ( link).
2. Quantum E-infinity field theoretical derivation of Newton’s gravitational constant. Int. J. of Nonlinear Sci. & Numerical Simulation, Vol. 8(4), 2007.
Published in Israel by Freund (link) .

Posted by Josh Reid on January 12, 2008 10:40 PM


I read what Dr Lisi wrote in his paper titled "An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything". In my opinion, his work is mainly a repetition of the pioneering work of the Egyptian-born physicist M.S El -Naschie.

El Naschie proposed for the first time the wide use of the exceptional Lie groups hierarchy in high energy physics. He deduced the value of the inverse fine structure constant using the sum of the E-series hierarchy. He also used the exceptional Lie groups to calculate the number and masses of elementary particles of the standard model. His fantastic results are summarized in his paper titled "from E-eight to E-infinity". In this paper El Naschie shows, for the first time, his views for the exceptional Lie group E-eight and how this group contains the other gauge groups that describe the standard model. He utilized the connection between E-eight to his Cantorian space time theory which is also called "E-infinity theory" to describe the unification of all fundamental interactions. Using this theory he gave a rigorous proof of quarks confinement, corrected some errors in the work on super symmetric grand unification and derived for the first time Newton’s gravitational constant.

I cannot believe that Dr Lisi did not see El Naschie’s work especially because all of El Naschie’s papers are available on the internet and it is logical for anyone working in this area to first make a survey of all the work already published. In addition, the only Journal article which Dr. Lisi has written is co-authored by Prof. H. Abarbanel who is a well- known nonlinear dynamics and deterministic chaos expert familiar with El Naschie’s work, old or new.

I regret to say that the first name and nationality of Prof. El Naschie may have played a role in omitting to give him credit for his work.

Posted by d.moffett on January 3, 2008 9:35 PM


Lisi's model inspired by EL Naschie's work on Golden Mean ratio.. is just an indirect way to learn that..

Golden Ratio Based Fractal Self Similarity
is the Electrical Cause of Gravity

Posted by dan winter on December 31, 2007 5:21 AM

Following P. Gerard’s comments posted a day ago on December 19, I decided to find out about this Mohamed El Naschie. I searched for him on SPIRES Web Page of Stanford Slack (see:;
(link). I found a staggering 106 papers by him - at least 25 of them are related to Exceptional Lie groups, quarks confinement and quantum field theory. The son of a gun has cleaned up the site. He started from the platonic bodies with golden mean proportions and worked his way via Coexter’s 120-cells and 600 cell polytops to a golden mean constructed exceptional Lie group hierarchies. Subsequently, I was amazed that he made predictions for a total number of missing elementary particles: 9 or 12 or 20 or 24 depending on various increasing energy scales. These particles are over and above the ones already found in the standard model.

It seems that Garrett Lisi’s colleagues have triggered a tidal wave.

Posted by Michael Poulter on December 20, 2007 11:27 PM

Regarding the Garrett Lisi E8 unification theory and the Lisi-Elnaschie controversy, I would like to sum up the situation as follows:

1. Lisi’s work has been recognized by many leading scientists notably Lee Smolin as a milestone in theoretical physics (see for instance article by Roger Highfield at http:
2. Various scientists have proposed that Lisi’s work deserves the Nobel prize in Physics. (see for instance comment posted by Thomas Ledbetter of November 15 (2007) at link)
3. Several theoretical physicists and scholars have pointed out that the Egyptian scientist, M. S. El Naschie reached the same conclusions of Lisi some 14 years earlier and that M. Green of Cambridge, UK and J. Schwarz of Caltech, USA and E. Witten of Princeton, USA were the first to discover E8 for high energy physics. (see S. Traener comments on November 23 (2007) and Maurice Meyers November 19 (2007)link)
4. Few commentators have expressed deep concern about Lisi’s work. The fact that he did not publish any of his work in any scientific journal and overlooked previous works was found to be unacceptable practice. Some said Lisi’s work is a clever reformulation of El Naschie’s work published much earlier in Elsevier Journal: Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (see comments by Edmund Ralph posted December 9 (2007)) link.
5. Some have proposed that Lisi, Green, Schwarz and El Naschie should share a Nobel prize in physics and warned against turning the issue to one of racial and religious discrimination involving Arabs, Moslems and Jews which is totally foreign to science. (see comments by Peter Hartley on December 10(2007))

In my opinion, what we need now is a sober evolution of the work of Lisi, El Naschie and the super strings and loop quantum mechanics school. Many ask why E8? The answer is simple: E8 is the largest exceptional Lie group that can exist. Some ask where is the natural randomness? The answer is simple. It is in the transfinite version of E8 as shown in the work of Ji Huan He, Marek Crnjac and Gerardo Iovane and all are published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (Elsevier, a leading nonlinear dynamics journal with the highest impact factor in the field also found on their website

It is clearly not sufficient to just take E8. We must take a transfinite, chaotic and random E8 exceptional Lie group shadowing the crisp classical E8 of Green, Schwarz and Witten as shown by El Naschie. In this context, we should not forget the pioneering work of G. ‘tHooft on deterministic quantum mechanics.

We appreciate the many witty remarks posted on this site but the subject is serious and needs serious consideration. As a first step may I draw attention to the following excellent readings namely two papers by G. ‘tHooft and M. S. El Naschie published by the American Institute of Physics: “Frontiers of Fundamental Physics” (2006) ISBN 978-0-7354-0412-0, pages 56-66 and pages 84-102. In addition, the extension of E8 to a transfinite E8 is given in “An outline for a quantum golden field theory”, Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (2007) published by Elsevier as well as “Towards a quantum golden field theory” in International Journal of Nonlinear Sciences and Numerical Simulation, 8(4) pp. 477-482 (2007) published by Freund in Israel.
Posted by P. Gerard on December 19, 2007 10:32 PM


There is a guy who's work even predates your Moslem scholar. He claims to have been a researcher at Los Alamos many years ago. (Tony Smith) - link Looks like he noticed something about this math, but even the Dr Finklestein mentioned in the article wouldn't support his work a decade ago.
Posted by Hank on December 19, 2007 4:41 AM

Note from Dan Winter- Tony Smith's work is discussed at length at-


I always thought the Periodic Table was shaped like a piece of an extra-dimensional mandala...
Posted by Darth Brooks on December 11, 2007 8:51 PM


It is not uncommon that a novice could overlook the contributions of others as is the case with Garrett Lisi’s paper “An exceptionally simple Theory of Everything.” However, how could a connoisseur of the literature; a past political left wing activist and a leading quantum gravity specialist such as Lee Smolin not know the various fundamental papers published on the pivotal role played by the E8 and E6 exceptional Lie groups in particle physics and the theory of unification. The beautiful new Book of the Beckers and J. H. Schawrz “String theory and M theory” goes even few steps further and proposes the equivalent of SO(10) and SU(5) with E5 and E4 . A recent paper published in Elsevier Science Direct Journal called Chaos, Solitons and Fractals, an interdisciplinary Journal for Nonlinear Dynamics, Quantum and Nanotechnology entitled “From E8 to E-Infinity” wraps it all up. In this paper, an Egyptian, M. S. El Naschie shows an incredible connection between the total sum of all exceptional Lie symmetry groups dimension 548 and the inverse electromagnetic fine structure coupling 548/4 = 137. In addition, the Egyptian concluded, following earlier work by Freeman Dyson, that the maximum number of elementary particles at the energy scale of the standard model is a maximum of half the inverse value. That means approximately 69 particles. The theory of E-Infinity is at least 15 years old and it is based on a new irrational quasi-binary system utilizing the miraculous properties of the golden mean and the Fibonacci numbers within this system (2)(248) = 496 of E8 E8 is reduced to 496-(0.18033989) = 495.9674775 while 137 is increased to 137.08203932. These small differences make a big difference and are behind the success of E-Infinity theory. Those interested in the nitty-gritty should read issue 2 of volume 35 of Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (January 2008). Particularly, the aforementioned paper from E-eight to E-Infinity pp. 285-290 of the same issue is of special interest. At least the abstract if not the entire paper maybe found on Science Direct

I think those responsible for this omission, owe the concerned authors an apology. It is regrettable that many emails sent to the “New Scientist” which featured Lisi’s paper and Lee Smolin’s comments, remain unanswered. Honesty is the grain of science and it would be a great calamity if we lose this as well.
Posted by M. Gribbens on December 11, 2007 8:04 PM


The Lisi-El Naschie controversy is highly interesting for multiple reasons. Let me first address the non-scientific facet. Garrett Lisi represents the all American Guy; athletic, optimistic, courageous and innocent. Mohamed Saladin El Naschie on the other hand is a shining example of an enlightened, cosmopolitan Arab Moslem and scholar. It would be immensely regrettable if the background of both men is misused by certain forces to create a political controversy with racial or a religious accent out of what is squarely scientific issues. Lisi has undoubtedly grossly overlooked El Naschie’s work on E8 unification which preceded Lisi’s work by at least a decade. However Lisi’s theory is formulated in the language of loop quantum mechanics while El Naschie’s relies heavily on the terminology and the methodology of nonlinear dynamics, chaos and heterotic super strings.

Some people have recently suggested that Garret Lisi should be awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics. I think this would be going too far. Prof. Green and Prof. Schwarz are the first to discover E8 for physics. El Naschie perfected the procedure and used an exceptional Lie symmetry group hierarchy involving all exceptional and unification groups. El Naschie also demonstrated that the dimension of the E-line symmetry groups gauged in mega electron volts and gega electron volts gives the mass of various mesons and that way established completely new connections to the problem of the mass spectrum of high energy elementary particles. A by product of El Naschie’s theory is a neat mathematical proof of quarks confinement.

I think that if a Nobel prize is seriously considered then Michael Green, John Schwarz, Mohamed El Naschie and Garrett Lisi must all share it.
Posted by Peter Hartley on December 10, 2007 10:00 AM


Referring to the comment by S. Traener on Nov 23, I did some googling for the names mentioned combined with the phrase "
Exceptional Lie groups in physics". The first page of the search results always displayed one or two titles by one whose name in the comment by Traener. That is El Naschie. Two more new names appeared. Unfortunately, I have no access to the hosting journals, but a comparison of the key words of each with that in Lisi's paper on the arXive indicate a remarkable overlap. Moreover, these two matches claim very similar results to lisi's. I'm working on trying to get the full text from a friend in the academia to be able to do more precise comparison. Yet I think we owe Dr Lisi an explanation why didn't he mention all the others who did similar work using the E8, particularly El Naschie?! I belive he, as a professional, should have access to such journals and should have done enough literature survey before publishing.
Posted by Edmund Ralph on December 9, 2007 7:05 PM